I'd brought this issue up before the draft, but now that I'm seeing some of the ratings on players being taken in the late 20's I think this issue should be addressed, or at least discussed, even if it could only be changed or adjusted after next year's rerates.
I really hate that DF ratings, such an important rating in the sim, and such an important skill in the NHL, are done by PK time and blocked shots. Using those two as the predominant factors we get Rob Scuderi (76DF) who I've never even head of, getting a higher defense rating than Nik Lidstrom, meanwhile Mark Eaton (78DF) has a higher defensive rating than one of the league's premier shutdown masters Robyn Regehr (76DF).
To me this makes the league's defensemen totally undervalued and diluted. Defensively speaking, there's no difference between a 1st round fantasy pick and a 25th round fantasy pick. I know this example is shortsighted and doesn't take other ratings into account, but still.
I realize that it wouldn't be a good idea to start adjusting how ratings are calculated after the draft, but I feel very strongly that the DF rating needs a big overhaul. I would be all for it even if many of my players saw their DF ratings drop.
The best way, IMO to do the DF rating is to get together a bunch of ratings sets from respected sources, Zubial, etc. to combine them and then average them out to get a defensive rating for each player. As it stands right now the value of defensive defensemen and defensemen in general is completely unrealistic. And we are all wanting realism,are we not...
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To NYIslander: Daniel Tjarnqvist, Duvie Westcott, Ilja Bryzgalov, Pat Rissmiller, Tom Poti, Bjorn Melin, Karri Ramo, Tom Gilbert
To Boston: Chris Pronger, Doug Murray, Jocelyn Thibault, Ken Klee, Wade Brookbank, Denis Istomin, Viktor Dovgan
Philippe27 wrote: I agree with you that there is some ackward stuff in there but it's too late to change now but should be adjusted for 06-07 season.
Yeah I wasn't advocating changing it now, but I think a change at the end of the 06-07 season is a must.
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To NYIslander: Daniel Tjarnqvist, Duvie Westcott, Ilja Bryzgalov, Pat Rissmiller, Tom Poti, Bjorn Melin, Karri Ramo, Tom Gilbert
To Boston: Chris Pronger, Doug Murray, Jocelyn Thibault, Ken Klee, Wade Brookbank, Denis Istomin, Viktor Dovgan
You can't take the DF in islolation. Those guys don't have intensity (hitting), aren't fast or good skaters, and their size isn't elite, but is decent.
COMBINATIONS are more important. My Scott Niedermayer only has a 75 DF (!!!!) but his his speed and skating that'll make his defensive ability better.
I also have Pronger.
We all get to see the same set of ratings, and draft accordingly.
Penalty kill time is a GOOD indication of defensive ability! And blocked shots needs to be factored in as well somehow. The DF is just one indication among many.
A great defenseman needs PC puck control to clear the zone, and PA to pass to forwards to ensure puck possession.
Eaton and Scuderi are majorly lacking in those areas, but they will probably be paired with Pronger and Niedermayer, which should provide decent support in those areas.
To summarize: a great def. d-man has INT, STR, PC, DF
A great off. d-man has SP, SK, PA, PC, DF
DF by itself, especially without PC, is limited to penalty kill and blocked shots kind of ability.
But anyways, 07/08 and beyond we could tweak formulas, of course.
What players do you see being taken in the late 20's??
I drafted Eaton in the 12th (TWELFTH) round, for his penalty killing and shot blocking; Scuderi in the 15th round.
They are 71 OV and 70 OV respectively. You want to overhaul the ratings because some guys are high in ONE rating area?
Draft yourself some shot-blocking penalty killers. (I have.)
CBJackets wrote:
I'd brought this issue up before the draft, but now that I'm seeing some of the ratings on players being taken in the late 20's I think this issue should be addressed, or at least discussed, even if it could only be changed or adjusted after next year's rerates.
What players do you see being taken in the late 20's??
I drafted Eaton in the 12th (TWELFTH) round, for his penalty killing and shot blocking; Scuderi in the 15th round.
They are 71 OV and 70 OV respectively. You want to overhaul the ratings because some guys are high in ONE rating area?
Draft yourself some shot-blocking penalty killers. (I have.)
CBJackets wrote:
I'd brought this issue up before the draft, but now that I'm seeing some of the ratings on players being taken in the late 20's I think this issue should be addressed, or at least discussed, even if it could only be changed or adjusted after next year's rerates.
I get your point about PC and ST and IT, and I exaggerated when I said good defensive players were being taken in the late 20s, but basically, if you're on a **** team and that's the only reason you're getting PK time, you're going to have a great DF rating.
How about Willie Mitchell? He is basically the same player Scuderi is in the sim, where Mitchell is a far superior player in real life. I just think it cheapens the value of a player like Carney, Bryan Allen or Jay Mckee when they are rated close to the same as a big physical guy who plays on a crappy team.
What about Jere Lehtinen? If I remember correctly you were one of the ones singing his praises in one of the chat sessions recently. He's got decent PC and SP and SK sure, but does a 74DF really do him justice? I don't think so. It's not one guy, it's a bunch of guys. A lot of teams have a myriad of players with 70+DF, it takes away from adding a good stay at homer at the deadline, or grabbing a guy like Axelsson to really fortify your PK.
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To NYIslander: Daniel Tjarnqvist, Duvie Westcott, Ilja Bryzgalov, Pat Rissmiller, Tom Poti, Bjorn Melin, Karri Ramo, Tom Gilbert
To Boston: Chris Pronger, Doug Murray, Jocelyn Thibault, Ken Klee, Wade Brookbank, Denis Istomin, Viktor Dovgan
Islanders made a great point about how a defensive defenseman is more than just a DF rating and yes Scuderi and Eaton are two prime examples (although I think most undervalue Eaton)...... DF is one of teh hardest to rate, by basing it on statistics, it takes teh subjectivity.
Yes the formula does favour guys on bad teams or undisciplined teams because in a guy like Scuderi's case, who the hell else will they play on the PK??? We've been working on the formulas to reward guys for team success on the PK and punish those teams that suffered. Ditto for PC which is based on PP time. What these ratings give you is specialists, much like the NHL, if you have a defenseman who is well rounded like a Niedermayer his value will only be enhanced because he can play in all situations. Forwards DF as a whole are low accross the board. What we do in BRHL is allow for ratings contestions of 3 attributes for up to 3 players. And we will likely implement that here, but only after season one.
Matt you mentioned using some of the available roster packs, have you looked at most of (if not all) the packages??? They're garbage for the most part, and have no accurate reflection of waht a guy accomplished that season.
The realism part as you mentioned IS reflected in teh ratings in that players are rated according to what they did last NHL season, not what they could do if in another situation.
What we do in BRHL is allow for ratings contestions of 3 attributes for up to 3 players. And we will likely implement that here, but only after season one.
HOTLANTA wrote: markov top 15 how is crystal meth?
LOL, figure it out, he is in the top 25 for TOI average, top 15 for ppg pace, plays solid defence and is young at the same time. He is Montreals number 1 EASY and is only getting better. He plays PK and PP and every situation he plays in he does well. Crystal Meth is good.
HOTLANTA wrote: markov top 15 how is crystal meth?
LOL, figure it out, he is in the top 25 for TOI average, top 15 for ppg pace, plays solid defence and is young at the same time. He is Montreals number 1 EASY and is only getting better. He plays PK and PP and every situation he plays in he does well. Crystal Meth is good.
Markov's stregth is restarting the attack and if you look at his overall skills he is a top 15. Defensively he has a lot to learn but overall I will agree with Sabres here.
Andrei Markov is a virus in every FHL league, I've never heard of another player debated over more than him. I have him in other leagues, I don't in this one. My concensous is that he's above average. a #2 at best, but has the potential (which he also had 5 years ago) to become even better. I think this year he will have a breakout year, but so far he's been good.
As far as the ratings go. Jay pretty much took the words out of my mouth. One rating category doesn't make or break a player. It is the combinations. Some GMs here have probably been accustomed to the ratings that have a slew of players in the 80's ov range. The BRHL on the otherhand rates players on a more realistc curve for the FHL Sim. Bryce has been rating players for the past 5+ years, and his ratings have produced realistic results in the BRHL 1. These players are rated fairly, and are also subject to our ongoing appeal/contestion system (which Bryce mentioned earlier).
One overall problem with ratings in general is that the statement "player x is better than player a" holds no merrit when it doesn't refer to statistical purposes. That statement is a matter of opinion, and opinionated ratings really don't work that well. The only thing that ratings can really be determined on is stats. Since every player has stats, we try to decipher which stats go with which category. The BRHL ratings are some of the most realistic stat producing ratings I've seen in the FHL. There are also some other leagues that have good ratings, but there are others who rely too much on the df, sc and ov.
For the record, there have been about 20 test seasons ran with these ratings, and they have produced pretty accurate results.
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Markov did have his breakout season. When your team is something like 1-10 without you and about 20 games above .500 with you I think it shows something about how good he is. Number 2 at best? He was #1 on the Habs who were among the best nin the NHL in goals against.
