Sundin

Philippe27 · Guru

RE: Sundin

CBJackets · Guru

Florida Panthers wrote:

PHO wrote:

Well done CBJ. Just like we rehearsed. The money is in the mail.

We're just looking for a fair shake here. It was impossible for us to know that the trade was confirmed and it's ridiculous to think that we are to assume that the league files will not be updated and that we would have to send in our lines via e-mail. Where is the justice I ask you!

As unfortunate as the situation is, I don't see any injustice as having been done here. Trades aren't confirmed by the league as being processed, never have. But everyone has been told, on more than one occasion, that if a trade is going to put you over the cap, it's your responsibility to either send in new lines before your game (if you have a day off), or along with the trade, send info about how you're getting under the cap ("please demote player x"). None of this is new...

I agree, and I certainly know that as a lot of other GMs do. But neither of those points are in the rules. You now have to make a distinction between what you should know, what should be utter common knowledge, and what is set down in the rules. I think what is in the rules should get the upper hand.

We can fault Phoenix as much as we want for not being active, but this is his first deal all season, to my knowledge. Besides possibly some email back in the day about trades being processed before the sim, there would really be no way to know that if you hadn't been trading other than paying close attention.

I am probably the last team that wants Sundin back on Phoenix, but I do feel that he has a good case.

OilersBrent · Senior Member

Personally, I think the trades should be put through after the sim, unless there is a special request made.

Why do i think this? Mainly, because when they are put in before the sim you don't have any control over your lines and roster. In other leagues I have been in that enter trades before the sim, the new players often don't start, so why even bother entering them?

I don't know the whole story pertaining to Nashville and Sundin, but from the sounds of it they made a minor trade and as a result, lost Sundin for the year. I'm sure that they could have gotten below the cap if they had a chance to set their roster.

I think around the trade deadline there is going to be several teams making moves that may put them close to the cap. I don't think any team wants to lose their star player for the playoff run. I'd like to suggest that for the remainder of the trading season that trades are entered after the sim so that teams are given a chance to set their roster.

I am not requesting this for myself because I am likely done moves, but it is for others so that all players are playing in the playoffs and the best team comes out on top.

Florida Panthers · Senior Member

CBJackets wrote:

I agree, and I certainly know that as a lot of other GMs do. But neither of those points are in the rules. You now have to make a distinction between what you should know, what should be utter common knowledge, and what is set down in the rules. I think what is in the rules should get the upper hand.

We can fault Phoenix as much as we want for not being active, but this is his first deal all season, to my knowledge. Besides possibly some email back in the day about trades being processed before the sim, there would really be no way to know that if you hadn't been trading other than paying close attention.

I am probably the last team that wants Sundin back on Phoenix, but I do feel that he has a good case.

I've never faulted Phoenix for lack of activity, and never would. I'm the one that's always said that as long as you're sending your lines, and responding to offers, that's all you need to do.

In this case, it's not a matter of "common sense". Whether it's specifically laid out in the rules or not, the GMs were notified of their responsibility and what they had to do. In addition, if rules are what you want to look at, it's also clear:

F. If a GM makes a trade that puts his team in violation of this limit the GM must work his roster through more trades, line juggling, waivers, or buyouts to get back over the floor and under the ceiling by that teams next games.

well... the next game was the game that was played after the trade was processed.

If Jagr wasn't lost earlier in the year, perhaps there could/should be more discussion. I don't see how anything different can result here without a huge contradition from what happened then.

Philippe27 · Guru

OilersBrent wrote:

Personally, I think the trades should be put through after the sim, unless there is a special request made.

Why do i think this? Mainly, because when they are put in before the sim you don't have any control over your lines and roster. In other leagues I have been in that enter trades before the sim, the new players often don't start, so why even bother entering them?

I don't know the whole story pertaining to Nashville and Sundin, but from the sounds of it they made a minor trade and as a result, lost Sundin for the year. I'm sure that they could have gotten below the cap if they had a chance to set their roster.

I think around the trade deadline there is going to be several teams making moves that may put them close to the cap. I don't think any team wants to lose their star player for the playoff run. I'd like to suggest that for the remainder of the trading season that trades are entered after the sim so that teams are given a chance to set their roster.

I am not requesting this for myself because I am likely done moves, but it is for others so that all players are playing in the playoffs and the best team comes out on top.

The problem is if the traded player gets hurt with the team that just traded him then his ne wteam is stuck with an injured player which creates even more problems.

PHO · Senior Member

But how are we to make the appropriate changes without having an updated roster and without even the knowledge that the trade was received by the commish and approved by the board? We wouldn't even need an e-mail from the commish notifying us the trade was processed, just an update on the roster page or the league files would have been more than enough. Then, we could download the league files, send that piece of sh*t Sedienberg (bitter at him because if he wasn't so sh*t we wouldn't have made the Brisebois deal and this wouldn't even be an issue) down and have the cap situation all resolved. If we have no idea the deal went through then why would we need to make a line-up change?

This comes down to it being our first trade and adjusting to the way things are done around here. Every league is different but you cannot expect us to assume that an e-mail is the way to get things done.

VanIslander · Guru

how did phoenix know the trade was already processed/approved if he never received any indication of it?

good point.

i am starting to see the case to be made for leniency given the circumstances

and since the blues g.m. was AWOL for a looong time, that was not a case of just a single game missed without updating files

as a set procedure: the commish or board should send an approved/vetoed reply OR updated files BEFORE one is obligated to submit new lines to reflect the trade and get within salary restrictions

Philippe27 · Guru

PHO wrote:

But how are we to make the appropriate changes without having an updated roster and without even the knowledge that the trade was received by the commish and approved by the board? We wouldn't even need an e-mail from the commish notifying us the trade was processed, just an update on the roster page or the league files would have been more than enough. Then, we could download the league files, send that piece of sh*t Sedienberg (bitter at him because if he wasn't so sh*t we wouldn't have made the Brisebois deal and this wouldn't even be an issue) down and have the cap situation all resolved. If we have no idea the deal went through then why would we need to make a line-up change?

This comes down to it being our first trade and adjusting to the way things are done around here. Every league is different but you cannot expect us to assume that an e-mail is the way to get things done.

"I put trades through before I sim. 2 reasons, to keep form with if a team needed to make a trade to get under / over cap requirements. And, if that player were to get injured in the game prior to the deal, then it could screw it up. So if you sned lines in, then make a trade. The lines are likely to get auto'd. Please try to stay on top of this, as I will do the same."

Says here trades are put through before and if you make a trade your lines will be auto'd (unless you send in an e-mail). Therefore you should expect your lines to be auto'd as shown there and hence no players will be sent down, Brisebois will just be added to your pro.
That was in an e-mail and you should have been aware of that.

Florida Panthers · Senior Member

PHO wrote:

But how are we to make the appropriate changes without having an updated roster and without even the knowledge that the trade was received by the commish and approved by the board? We wouldn't even need an e-mail from the commish notifying us the trade was processed, just an update on the roster page or the league files would have been more than enough. Then, we could download the league files, send that piece of sh*t Sedienberg (bitter at him because if he wasn't so sh*t we wouldn't have made the Brisebois deal and this wouldn't even be an issue) down and have the cap situation all resolved. If we have no idea the deal went through then why would we need to make a line-up change?

This comes down to it being our first trade and adjusting to the way things are done around here. Every league is different but you cannot expect us to assume that an e-mail is the way to get things done.

Again, it's unfortunate that you've lost Sundin. I have nothing against you or the Coyotes. However "it's my first trade and things are different here than another league i'm in" just doesn't cut it as an excuse. As has been pointed out twice now already, the message was sent out by the league that if you make a trade that puts you over the cap, it's up to you to ensure that's rectified... send the message along with the trade to send Seidenberg to the farm... It really should make no difference whether you knew the trade was "confirmed" by the league or not. If you send in a trade that you know (or should know) is going to put you over the cap, why would you do it in the first place without having the additional information about farming Seidenberg in the same message? If you know the trade puts you over the cap, it's up to you to ensure it doesn't happen.

Can things be taken away from this situation to improve things for the future? I don't think there's any doubt of that. However, I also don't think there's any doubt that from the message the league sent out a long time ago, that trades are processed before games, and if you send in lines, then make a trade, the lines are going to get auto'd.

PHO · Senior Member

You're absolutely right, new to a league is no excuse and I wasn't trying to create an excuse. That did not come out right. My point is that we have to assume something one way or the other. It's not clear in the rules.

We made an assumption, that the league did not process the trade. If I knew the process was to send in our line-up without an updated roster via e-mail, don't you think we would have included that in our original e-mail? Our thought was that the league files would be updated and we'd send in our lines with the legal roster and when we noticed that the rosters hadn't been updated then we figured the deal didn't go through for one reason or another.

And let's be honest here, do you really think we would have made this move to put us over the cap to gain an advantage? Brisebois wouldn't have made a difference.

I just want to make sure I have this correct for any future roster moves,

if a player puts us over the cap via a trade and we hear nothing from the commish, the roster is not updated and the league files are not updated, then we are to assume that the trade went through and we are to include our moves in the same e-mail as the trade confirmation?

-- Edited by PHO at 17:09, 2007-02-12

-- Edited by PHO at 17:16, 2007-02-12

Florida Panthers · Senior Member

PHO wrote:
if a player puts us over the cap via a trade and we hear nothing from the commish, the roster is not updated and the league files are not updated, then we are to assume that the trade went through and we are to include our moves in the same e-mail as the trade confirmation?

Phrasing it like that clearly makes things seem far more controversial than they really are, at least in my opinion. If you're making a trade that you know is going to put you over the cap, include instructions on how to ensure you're not over the cap. It really doesn't take anything more than that. All the talk about trades "going through" is really irrelivant as far as I'm concerned... when you send in the trade, I don't see any reason why you the assumption would be that the trade would not be put through... I know that if I send in a trade, I certainly am planning as if the trade is done and what my roster will look like... why would I think otherwise?

CBJackets · Guru

Florida Panthers wrote:

PHO wrote:
if a player puts us over the cap via a trade and we hear nothing from the commish, the roster is not updated and the league files are not updated, then we are to assume that the trade went through and we are to include our moves in the same e-mail as the trade confirmation?

Phrasing it like that clearly makes things seem far more controversial than they really are, at least in my opinion. If you're making a trade that you know is going to put you over the cap, include instructions on how to ensure you're not over the cap. It really doesn't take anything more than that. All the talk about trades "going through" is really irrelivant as far as I'm concerned... when you send in the trade, I don't see any reason why you the assumption would be that the trade would not be put through... I know that if I send in a trade, I certainly am planning as if the trade is done and what my roster will look like... why would I think otherwise?

I think you're entirely missing the point of what he's saying, or of what the situation is. The situation isn't that he failed to make proper adjustments or that he didn't send an email to the commish stating what roster moves to make, well that is the main issue, but the real issue here is that he didn't know that trades would be processed before the sim. Otherwise, of course he would have sent something in to rectify his lines. If he thought trades would be processed after the sim then he assumed, as he has stated that he would be able to adjust his lines before the next game.

The fact is there is nothing in the rulebook that states that trades are processed before the sim. There is an email, but does everyone in the league really read every single email? Maybe they should, but the rules, as we've been told all year and as we've tried to follow, are the final say.

There have been other teams that have been over the cap this year for games because of sim errors and such, and they have been let go. I realize this is a bit different, but still, should we really be taking away a team's best player just for this? For something that isn't clearly stated in the rules? For something that obviously would have been fixed except for a small but costly assumption, for a team that could have easily gotten under the cap had they wanted to, for a player that had as little effect in a game as Brisebois did?

I'm contradicting myself by saying we should strictly adhere to the rules, but come on, I really think we should give this team a break.

-- Edited by CBJackets at 18:20, 2007-02-12

Sabres · Guru

Yah, However I can see someone possibly waiting until they can change it in their GM Editor Program, can't you? HOw many sims went through before he went over?

Philippe27 · Guru

There is an email, but does everyone in the league really read every single email? Maybe they should, but the rules, as we've been told all year and as we've tried to follow, are the final say.

I think everyone is responsible for reading e-mails and I know when I was commish anything I said in e-mails I assumed everyone read it and it was as worthy if not more than what was said in the rulebook.

Florida Panthers · Senior Member

CBJackets wrote:

I think you're entirely missing the point of what he's saying, or of what the situation is. The situation isn't that he failed to make proper adjustments or that he didn't send an email to the commish stating what roster moves to make, well that is the main issue, but the real issue here is that he didn't know that trades would be processed before the sim. Otherwise, of course he would have sent something in to rectify his lines. If he thought trades would be processed after the sim then he assumed, as he has stated that he would be able to adjust his lines before the next game.

I'm not missing the point what so ever. I fully understand that this wasn't an intentional thing to go over the cap (nor would it ever be knowing the consequences). I fully understand everything that's been said. What I've also heard, and this isn't intended to be some sort of personal attack on Phoenix, is a bunch of excuses about how things weren't known. I haven't heard "it was our fault, we screwed up". Because I'm sorry, that's exactly what happened. And even if that was said, I would still have the same opinion, but would at least have a little more sympathy.

The excuse of "who reads every e-mail" is I'm sorry, a crock. When the league sends out an e-mail with the subject heading of "BRHL2 League E-mail" then yes, you'd better be reading that e-mail whether you read everything or not. It was clearly told to everyone that trades get processed before the sim is run.

It doesn't say in the rules I get fined for bashing someone elses trade block, or attacking people personally with name calling and other stuff like that. Do I have a case for not getting fined when we've all been told about it?

The aspect of other cap situations going unpunished is absolutely irrelivant whan those issues had absolutely nothing to do with the individual GMs either doing something incorrecting, or failing to do something.