Calder Trophy Travesty

Sabres · Guru

Calder Trophy Travesty

HOTLANTA · Guru

yes id like to see it changed and the guy who wins the rocket get the calder aswell marek svatos

-- Edited by HOTLANTA at 00:34, 2006-12-15

Florida Panthers · Senior Member

Sabres wrote:

Does anyone else find it completely asinine that a goalie who is 13-10-3 with 3 SO's and a goalie who is 10-8-2 with 2 SO's are both beating a forward who is 16+28=44 in 36 games?

That formula has to be changed. Basically any team that has a rookie net minder and actually plays him alot and their team is so-so wins the calder with the current formula.

Is this still going to be put to a league vote? Cause thats for sure no accurate.

You make it sound so simplistic... what you forgot to mention is that goalie who's 13-10-3 also sits 3rd in the whole league in save percentage and is only .002 off the 2 league leaders, that the 3 shutouts is tied for 2nd in the league, and although it doesn't actually count towards calder points for the trophy, sits 2nd in the league in GAA. Lundqvist is clearly playing like one of the top goalies in the league.

That's not to say that Crosby isn't playing like one of the top skaters in the league because clearly he is, but to suggest that it's black and white like you're suggesting just isn't the case.

So now that we're almost halfway through the season, because you have a skater you think should be winning the race, we should be changing the formula just to make him the leader?

I, like most people I would tend to think, believe that good or bad, rules really shouldn't be changed in the middle of the year. When I made the post suggesting that signing bonuses go towards the cap, in the same post I was also the one that fully said that I wouldn't expected it to happen now, and even a full year away.

As it is, the POTW formula was changed earlier in the year and it is now essentially literally impossible for a goalie to win the POTW... a goalie in the POTW can get a maximum of 21 POTW points. That will never be enough to win.

Sabres · Guru

Florida Panthers wrote:

You make it sound so simplistic... what you forgot to mention is that goalie who's 13-10-3 also sits 3rd in the whole league in save percentage and is only .002 off the 2 league leaders, that the 3 shutouts is tied for 2nd in the league, and although it doesn't actually count towards calder points for the trophy, sits 2nd in the league in GAA. Lundqvist is clearly playing like one of the top goalies in the league.

That's not to say that Crosby isn't playing like one of the top skaters in the league because clearly he is, but to suggest that it's black and white like you're suggesting just isn't the case.

So now that we're almost halfway through the season, because you have a skater you think should be winning the race, we should be changing the formula just to make him the leader?

I, like most people I would tend to think, believe that good or bad, rules really shouldn't be changed in the middle of the year. When I made the post suggesting that signing bonuses go towards the cap, in the same post I was also the one that fully said that I wouldn't expected it to happen now, and even a full year away.

As it is, the POTW formula was changed earlier in the year and it is now essentially literally impossible for a goalie to win the POTW... a goalie in the POTW can get a maximum of 21 POTW points. That will never be enough to win.

First off, we wouldnt be changing the formula SO THAT crosby would win, We would change it so that the actual best player will win. Not a bit average goalies. Lundqvist put up way better numbers last year in the real nhl than he is in brhl and he wasnt even close to crosby and AO. Crosby has put up 44..on pace for about what he put up last year.

Secondly, Changing a formula isnt a rule, so that arguement has absolutely no merrit. Werent you in favour of the POTW formula switch anyuways?
Its a formula not a rule, get that straight.

BTW it is pretty simplistic, He should be beating out 2 average goalies 13-10? come on.. I dont think you're being quite rational..I think if the POTM formula was switched it has set a precedent in this situation which is obviously unfair.

CBJackets · Guru

I'm pretty sure that the award doesn't go directly to the player with the highest score on the XtraStats page. If it does, well that's just stupid because the formulas used for the awards races are often skewed. Look at the Vezina race, Manny Legace is on top simply because he has a lot of wins, he isn't even in the top 10 in save percentage.

The Norris race looks pretty good, but the formula doesn't take team success into account at all. On a horrid Buffalo team, and with 11 goals thus far, I would argue Jay Bouwmeester should be in the top 2.

In any case the formulas used for these pages can be deceiving, and in no way should the award just go to whoever finishes higher in each race. They should either be decided by the comissioners or by the league. As we've seen with the previous POTM formula they can be quite inaccurate.

CBJackets · Guru

Florida Panthers wrote:

Sabres wrote:

Does anyone else find it completely asinine that a goalie who is 13-10-3 with 3 SO's and a goalie who is 10-8-2 with 2 SO's are both beating a forward who is 16+28=44 in 36 games?

That formula has to be changed. Basically any team that has a rookie net minder and actually plays him alot and their team is so-so wins the calder with the current formula.

Is this still going to be put to a league vote? Cause thats for sure no accurate.

You make it sound so simplistic... what you forgot to mention is that goalie who's 13-10-3 also sits 3rd in the whole league in save percentage and is only .002 off the 2 league leaders, that the 3 shutouts is tied for 2nd in the league, and although it doesn't actually count towards calder points for the trophy, sits 2nd in the league in GAA. Lundqvist is clearly playing like one of the top goalies in the league.

That's not to say that Crosby isn't playing like one of the top skaters in the league because clearly he is, but to suggest that it's black and white like you're suggesting just isn't the case.

So now that we're almost halfway through the season, because you have a skater you think should be winning the race, we should be changing the formula just to make him the leader?

I, like most people I would tend to think, believe that good or bad, rules really shouldn't be changed in the middle of the year. When I made the post suggesting that signing bonuses go towards the cap, in the same post I was also the one that fully said that I wouldn't expected it to happen now, and even a full year away.

As it is, the POTW formula was changed earlier in the year and it is now essentially literally impossible for a goalie to win the POTW... a goalie in the POTW can get a maximum of 21 POTW points. That will never be enough to win.

There's actually nothing in the rulebook about how most of the awards will be determined. So saying we would be changing any rules is incorrect.

Florida Panthers · Senior Member

Sabres wrote:

First off, we wouldnt be changing the formula SO THAT crosby would win, We would change it so that the actual best player will win. Not a bit average goalies. Lundqvist put up way better numbers last year in the real nhl than he is in brhl and he wasnt even close to crosby and AO. Crosby has put up 44..on pace for about what he put up last year.

Lol... no, you want to change the formula so that Crosby would win. you want to change it so that the best player in your mind, would win. Say what you want, but clearly having the 2nd best GAA, 3rd (.002 off the top) save %, and 2nd in shutsouts is not "bit average" whatever that means.

Sabres wrote:

Secondly, Changing a formula isnt a rule, so that arguement has absolutely no merrit. Werent you in favour of the POTW formula switch anyuways?
Its a formula not a rule, get that straight.

Lol, you want something changed that will affect money paid out (should the xtra stats for Calder actually be how it's decided). I don't really care if you want to call it a rule or not. Get that straight.

And no, I wasn't in favour of the POTW formula switch. Why would I be in favour of a switch that is going to eliminate my best chance at winning it?

Sabres wrote:

BTW it is pretty simplistic, He should be beating out 2 average goalies 13-10? come on.. I dont think you're being quite rational..I think if the POTM formula was switched it has set a precedent in this situation which is obviously unfair.

LOL, you really do like trying to make things simple don't you. A goalie's winning percentage has as much to do with the team itself as it does with the goalie, similar to the GAA. The save % is the best indicate of how a goalie does individually.

I'm the one not being rational? You're the one bringing this forward solely because he wants his own player to win it. You're the one saying that a goalie who's among the league leaders in every single goalie category is playing "average". I guess if it's changed, I'll just wait until 2 days before the end of the season to point out how unfair the formula is at that point so that my guy can win

Florida Panthers · Senior Member

CBJackets wrote:

There's actually nothing in the rulebook about how most of the awards will be determined. So saying we would be changing any rules is incorrect.

Ok, for fricks sake, ya caught me. Who cares if it's in the rule book or not. It's just everyday common sense. Don't change stuff mid-season, rule or no rule. Tinker in the offseason.

And like I said, any time I've suggested a rule change or ANY change, it's been suggested to be not mid season.

And with regards to how awards will be determined, I actually was just chatting with Eric about that. I personally think that how awards will be determined should be stated asap. I don't personally care if it's done by league wide vote, by Xtra Stats, some sort of combination of the 2, or anything else. But it should be something that we all know so that there's no arguements at the end of the season about formulas being altered, or votes being made because people think the formula was wrong at the end of the year...

-- Edited by Florida Panthers at 01:24, 2006-12-15

CBJackets · Guru

Well I don't know if you're being serious or not, but it's common sense to not use those formulas for important awards that are worth money because those formulas suck in most cases.

Your top 2 and top 3 goalie is 7th in Vezina voting, behind a lot of goaltenders who have put up more wins but much worse individual stats.

I just really hope we don't use some stupid statistical formulas that have proven to be inaccurate already and are clearly inaccurate (in some cases) right now.

It should be by vote or by commish decision, in which case your guys would still have a good chance at winning and should most definitely be finalists as of right now.

There's 1/2 a season left but I reiterate that we definitely shouldn't use these formulas for anything but POTM, and even then I would much rather we didn't use them.

Sabres · Guru

Florida Panthers wrote:

I'm the one not being rational? You're the one bringing this forward solely because he wants his own player to win it. You're the one saying that a goalie who's among the league leaders in every single goalie category is playing "average". I guess if it's changed, I'll just wait until 2 days before the end of the season to point out how unfair the formula is at that point so that my guy can win

Saying what you think twice doesnt drive home the point any better, you tend to repeat yourself a lot. Btw i didnt say average, i said above. Please stop. lol

Anyways, HOw is me bring this issue to the table wrong, Obviousy the team who is getting jipped is going to bring this up. Me bring this up is no different then you arguing for lundqvist. Im not going to say i wouldnt do the same if i was in your postion, but why dont we just see what people form objective standpoints think. Because i know before we had crosby we thought it was stupid but didnt have much invested so i guess we just didnt care.

Fact of the matter is, Its not JUST lundqvist that is beating Crosby, but Toivenen is too. which tells me there is for sure something wrong with the goalie formula..

Like Cls mention, its shouldnt just be about stats that a formula spits out. There are other things that come into play when picking Calders and MVPs...I am sure some of the decision the people made on AO last year had to do with his supporting cast, or lack there of.

WildJamie · Senior Member

I am pretty sure this same topic came up in another thread (not sure which award it was concerning, Hart maybe?). Anyhow, it was stated there that it would be based on a league-wide vote.

I personally see the only way to do it is that way. Same way the awards are given in the NHL, voted on, not by some formula.

Vezina, Norris, Calder, Hart, All-Star MVP, Minors MVP, GM of the year, Best Trades of the year. All of these should be voted on by the league. A ballot developed with 3-5 nominees, and then a league-wide vote (one vote per team).

BryceBruins · BRHL2 Co-Commish

Haven't read all the posts so maybe I'm missing something, but ALL awards will be voted on at the end of the year. The Extrastats page is just a precurser of sorts.

Bryce

Sabres · Guru

BryceBruins wrote:

Haven't read all the posts so maybe I'm missing something, but ALL awards will be voted on at the end of the year. The Extrastats page is just a precurser of sorts.

Bryce

Okay thanks for the clarification Bryce.

Florida Panthers · Senior Member

BryceBruins wrote:

Haven't read all the posts so maybe I'm missing something, but ALL awards will be voted on at the end of the year. The Extrastats page is just a precurser of sorts.

Bryce

Problem solved. If anything, my suggestion then to the Vezina, Calder and any other trophy that may have xtra stats... don't even put those extra stats up on the page. With all the subjectivity of formulas, it won't do anything but potentially bias people who look at it. If GMs look at those pages once and while and consistently see the same name at the top of the list, it definitely has the potential to bias an opinion.

With that being said, the POTW formula absolutely needs to go back to what it was before it was altered mid-season earlier (and just up the minimum number of games), or it needs fixing. As it is, goalies are essentially literally unable to win the POTW (and although POTM is still technically possible, we're talking extremely unlikely). And before I get jumped on, as I'm sure I will, for suggesting a change mid-stream after all the talk I made about NOT changing things mid-stream, it's a pretty different situation since we're talking about something that was already changed and clearly was changed to something that can't work.

BryceBruins · BRHL2 Co-Commish

I don't think it hurts having the extra stats up, it provides more viewing pleasure for people, and can be neat to look at.

What I would fully expect as the season winds down and voting on awards begins to take shape would be some press releases "pimping" players up for awards they could be in the running for. I think with that everyone will be well aware of what certain players have done, and will provide the media blitz that often occurs.

POTW-POTM formula's....honestly I havent looked at them all year long, I will investigate though and see if we can come up with a better formula for it.