is this being looked into??? i had posted some number calculations i did to show how with the forwards new scale that the goalies havent been adjusted to match,, was wonderring if it was being looked into..
also everyone else what is the opinion around the league regarding the goalie rerates??? with 17 goalies 80+ but only two goalies 84 or higher it seems to me that we need a better seperation of the 14 goalies rate 80-81-82-83 the one way i think we can seperate these goalies is to adjust the formula that is used..currently the only things that matter in getting a strength rating for goalies is height and weight... IMO the strength rating should be in someway tied to the total GP the goalie has in the nhl..
like ex.. Marty Turco 79 strength because he is small.. Olli Kolzig 91 because he is big and fat..
to me a goalies strength isnt whether he is big and tall but whether they have the endurance, durability, AND STRENGTH to still be good goalie after starting 50+ games or 60+ games or 70+ games.. to me that is what the strength ratings should reflect..
just my thought hoping to generate solid discussion so we can look into adjusting the goalie ratings.. with the new forwards scale i can understand Daniel Alfreddson 86 compared to spezza 81 a 5 ov difference.. but to think the difference between the 3rd best goalie and the 17th best goalie (3 ov) is a smaller gap than alfredson to spezza (5 ov) is crazy to me..
Again, any argumen bsed around the OV is a pointless one. Fr the last freaking time, stop measuring effectiveness by using OV.
A valid argument would be one based around specific attributes. The argument about ST is a good basis, BUT GP already affects EN and DU, which is also a key stat for goalies. Are yo serously going to say that Turco is stronger than Kolzig? Pretty sure Olli would roll any goalie in a fight. Yes that isnt specifically what ST is is based on a who ould in scenario. But EVERYTHING can't be based on one stat.
I think the ratings are pretty good. I know the fundamental argument you have is you think Lundqvist should be higher, but he has great attributes across the board. (Also you're the one bitching to others to not look at their team ad stop thinking selfishly.) He had a good year, yes he had 10 shutouts, which is great, and is reflected n his ratings. But his .912 save percentage is good, but it isnt great. Hell Valiquette had a better SP% backing him up.
The difference between the 4th-5th best goalie in the league to the 15th-16th is (statistically speaking) almost negligble. And I'd argue that mimicks teh NHL as well. Quick sidebar, since the lockout lets look at the goalies in teh cup finals
Osgood Fleury Giguere Emery Roloson Ward
Still care to tell me that the best guys are arguably so much better? I would say each of these guys would hav been in the 5-17 range in that year for best goalis (less with Rolli and Ward).
Argue stats, but as soon as you even mention OV, anywhere, your argument becomes fatally flawed.
the arguement that OV means nothing is the most flawed arguement the LEAGUE can ever come up with. . y not turn the OV off if it means nothing??? its a gauge to measure value of individual players.. (obviously or why have it????)
with the comments about the forwards being seperated the actions to seperate the elite forwards from the star forwards was a good move by the league that everyone has embraced,, why are we not adjusting the goalies to the same scale??? why do we have to use the original brhl goalie ratings?? is it tooooo much work to do two sets of goalie ratings????
and also this isnt an individual quest to get lundy bumped up,, it is me merely wanting to know why the forward ratings and goalie ratings arent on the same scale it seems silly to me..
the arguement that OV means nothing is the most flawed arguement the LEAGUE can ever come up with. . y not turn the OV off if it means nothing??? its a gauge to measure value of individual players.. (obviously or why have it????)
Way to show your in depth knowledge of teh inner-workings of the sim. You can;t turn the OV rating off, FHLSim doesn't give you that option. It is nothing but some weird contorted average. If I had the option I would turn it off, at NO point during the rerate process is OV ven looked at,nor can it be adjusted.
with the comments about the forwards being seperated the actions to seperate the elite forwards from the star forwards was a good move by the league that everyone has embraced,, why are we not adjusting the goalies to the same scale??? why do we have to use the original brhl goalie ratings?? is it tooooo much work to do two sets of goalie ratings????
What scale? Again you're complaining about OV. Make an argument as to the attributes and what is off there. ST is strength, which is what is measured in that column.
Seriously, I'm leaving tomorrow for a week. If anyone has a valid cocnern and back that up with some sort of statistical evidence, I'll be glad to hear it. Kirk, shut your pie-hole
how about these attributes which i just think are way out of whack using COMMON KNOWLEDGE
Giguere 92 speed (widely known as not the fastest goalie) Turco 90 Speed (widely known as the probably the fastest goalie in nhl skating wise)
another really nice one i liked is vesa toskala 78 Passing marty turco 76 passing.. geeeeeezzz whose the better puckmoving goalie???
Tim Thomas 82 strength 5'11- 200lbs marty turco 79 strength 5'11- 190lbs
is 10lbs worth three strength points is that the scale were using??
the more and more i look into the goalie ratings the more it frustrates me.. with the ratings of the forwards and d-men being very very very good.. the pooooorrr goalie ratings sure cripple the leagues rosters IMO... i have an 82-77 goalie combo this ISNT about me personally i just dont see how more people DONT see this as a PROBLEM..
I'm waiting for Mama Shuck to post on here, yelling at her kids.
"I'll turn this FHL Message board right-around and take you home if you don't stop fighting!"
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"Theres also talk of creating more room at the end of the rink by making the nets more shallow, which would be accomplished by encouraging them to spend all their time listening to pop music and reading Twilight books."
I do think that things seem a bit scewed however, I do know not the ins and outs of the sim. I'm sure bryce runs multiple tests before finalizing. I thought it was a bit weird that the highest Save % was like .905 last year but I dont know if theres a way to change that. I think anytime Luongo outputs like he did there may be something a bit off. Obviously having Marty I wish to have more disparity but i honestly don't know how a 70 sims differently from an 80.
Bryce how are the ratings produced? all statistical?
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I do think that things seem a bit scewed however, I do know not the ins and outs of the sim. I'm sure bryce runs multiple tests before finalizing. I thought it was a bit weird that the highest Save % was like .905 last year but I dont know if theres a way to change that. I think anytime Luongo outputs like he did there may be something a bit off. Obviously having Marty I wish to have more disparity but i honestly don't know how a 70 sims differently from an 80.
Bryce how are the ratings produced? all statistical?
Not that anyone will read this but I'm bored and I had this conversation with Bryce last summer so I can explain. The ratings are all done with statistics, there is a way to increase the save percentages but it takes a lot of testing and it's not all that important.
As far as the disparity here are the two sides to it: -Ratings should replicate the 2007-2008 season as much as possible so that Giguere, Brodeur, Vokoun and so on are near the top of the league in save percentage as much as possible. This means more disparity between goalies and applies to players as well. -Ratings should be closer to eachother because in the NHL year after year the top goalies change in every season. Guys like Brodeur will be better a little more often but he struggled in the NHL playoffs. If Roloson can win the cup, anyone can win the cup so goalies should be closer to eachother. The counter argument to this is that in the NHL they can scout players and coach them and make one goalie play better than another, all we have are ratings so they should replicate how they played in the actual NHL as much as possible.
Pick you side but those are the main points for both.
The problem with replication of how they performed in the NHL is you can't account for a good goalie playing with a great defense.
Osgood winning a cup behind the NHL Redwings defense shouldn't sim the same if he was playing behind NJ in BRHL's defense (No offense Jordan, just an example.)
Should Luongo have similar outputs if he was on the worst team in the league...or is it closer than that between all the goalies? I am not sure....
Personally, I would like all skater ratings have a wider range....and have said so to Bryce for a few years. The Laraques and McGrattans of the world should be mid 60s OV as hockey players.
I will not try to understand the evaluation systems used to rerate players, it is an area I have a tough time with, however I do think the re rate of one Manny Fernandez was a bit extreme for sure.
He had a tough year, but a 5 or 6 point drop in OV avg is tough. I know ov means little but in order to get that type of a ov drop the numbers had to be brutally lowered in an awful lot of areas of the rates.
I could see down to 75 although even that seems a bit out of whack as I am sure most would tell you he is much better than that.
But I guess I will learn to live with it.
-- Edited by Pittsburgh GM at 11:41, 2008-07-12
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Rod Edwards Pittsburgh Penguins / Wilkes Barre Penguins General Manager BRHL2
